Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to another episode of the Growth Focus Podcast, where we bring together leaders from all across the globe to share their time, their expertise, but more importantly, their insights on what it actually takes to. To grow a business today.
As you and I both know that growing a business today in this crowded, noisy market is getting harder and harder and harder. AI has come in, and therefore there's a lot more shiny object syndrome out there. But it doesn't distract from all the noise that's also out there that holds us back when it comes to making those right decisions and the right foot forward. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking about, how do we separate the noise? How do we stand out above all the noise, and how do we make ourselves slightly different? Different from everybody else so that our message is the one that can be heard over and above everybody else. And if it can't be above everybody else, at least the one that makes more sense than anything else. So, without further ado, let's get this episode started.
Drew, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here today. Why don't you start off by introducing yourself? Tell us who you are, and what is it you actually do.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Hi. How are you? My name is Andrew Kelly. I am an executive vice president and Chief artificial intelligence officer at A.J. wayne Associates. Been here for 23 years, and this is the only job I've ever had. And we are a wholesale broker that deals in professional liability insurance. And we focus on giving the best possible experience to our retail agent partners to help them find more business.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, thank you for that. So, before we dive into that, Drew, I want to start with something you mentioned when we first spoke. You came out of DePaul thinking that you might even become a professor, and then something ended up allowing you working into a family insurance business. How did that happen?
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Well, I think nobody gets into insurance on. Very few people get into insurance on purpose like everybody else. I sort of fell into it.
I happened to be looking for an admin job, and at the time, I got a call from the founder, the chairman, who asked if I wanted to come in and do an interview that day. And I had to tell him that I was a college student at the time and didn't own a suit. And if you'd like me to come in, I'd be happy to do that, but expect a DePaul pullover and some athletic pants.
And he had me in the same day. And the rest is sort of history. I remember at the time, $27,000 was a lot of money, but that's what they hired me for. And the insurance business sort of just sucked me in, you know, I had designs on becoming a philosophy professor, but explaining the coverage, giving retail agents a sense of how things worked, sort of drew me in because my national inclination is to teach people and insurance is just kind of that. It's teaching folks understand the coverage and allowing them to understand what it is that they're buying.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Gotcha. So for someone who, you know, it's an interesting story. You want to go into philosophical and then you end up then looking for admin job, I suppose, as a tie over and then boom, you're into this industry. And as you say, no one probably goes through college thinking, you know, what, insurance is the one I want to get into.
So I suppose for everyone listening here who doesn't live and breathe insurance on a day to day basis, let's explain where A.J. wayne fits into the whole picture. Picture with regards to the insurance market.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Sure. The last five to 10 years, there's been a huge wave of consolidation throughout.
Not just insurance, but all sectors.
Private equity has gotten involved and sort of, you know, has played a role in merging family owned businesses into larger orange corporations. And where we see ourselves in the marketplace is one of the few remaining independent family owned wholesale shops that specialize in professional liability. That is not private equity backed, that is not, you know, a part publicly owned, and that has all of the strengths of a, you know, larger institution, but still has the ability to, you know, say we're independent but also mean it and give our agents the nimbleness that they need when it comes time to, you know, make the sausage, as they say.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: So when an independent, let's say an independent insurance agent, it comes to AJ Wayne. What problem are they actually asking you to solve for them?
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Usually they're coming to us because this, the work product that they're getting for whatever reason is not answering the question. It's not giving them the result that they need. And I usually see it's one of two things our industry has seen a decline in, like how much folks are holding hands and giving them the kind of personalized attention that a lot of retailers really want. And when they're coming to us, usually what I see is because they're not getting a call back, they want to walk through something in a way that makes it more relatable for them. Because some retail agents just aren't special. They don't specialize in professional liability. And, you know, part of what they want is they want to understand what they're getting and not just, you know, be forced to explain a quote without any context. So what we really sort of, what we do well in is, you know, explaining the process, explaining the options being available and, you know, giving our retailers resources that goes beyond the technological, but also incorporate the technological in, you know, our work output and what we're able to offer them both from technology and being able to, you know, sort of walk them through everything together.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: That's really interesting because what we're seeing, especially within the industry as a whole, we're seeing this more of a, more of a need now, which is more of an educational based need. And those who are educating their, their retail agents are the ones who are becoming more of this hybrid partner as opposed to just a wholesaler or supplier.
In your experience, how important is education as part, as part of the growth strategy for AJ and as part of their growth strategy as for agents as well?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Oh, it's everything. I mean, just until a couple years ago, it's not an understatement to say that we barely marketed at all.
Our entire flow of business came from folks that just happened to find us and, you know, got the consultative approach, you know, without all of the other noise, and just sort of stayed with us. And very recently with the advent of artificial intelligence with more technological capabilities, it's allowed that us to step back those capabilities on top of what we already do well, the expertise, the boutique experience with being able to, you know, give our agents more of our time. And it's enhanced our ability to be consultative, to be educational with, in my view, like, that's the whole, that's the whole game. Like, if you're able to teach the retailer about the exposure, about what they're selling and about what the insured is buying, that's what really being a wholesaler is all about.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: No, absolutely, absolutely. And I think because like You've been with A.J. wayne now for a generation, over a quarter of a century now, and you've described AJ Wayne to me as like an old school brokerage using new school tools. To quote your words, when you say old school, you know, there's a value to old school. Some people will poo, poop that and go, do you know what? Everyone's moved on. But there's still a value in this world of authenticity or the lack of authenticity where it's important.
So when you say old school, what are the values or ways of making ways work that you just refuse to let go? This is the way we're doing it. This is the way we've always done it, because this works. Give me a couple of examples of those.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: Well, in insurance, just like in business, you have folks that are completely, either completely reliant on the technology and are not able to.
They don't have the same phone skills, they don't have the same want to, you know, explain things or, you know, they don't have the ability to understand the technology, but, you know, they have every single thing you would ever want. And, you know, explaining something to someone on the phone, on the phone. And what we sort of pride ourselves on is having a foot in both pools.
You know, we do not. We're not reliant on technology and we have the expertise that we need to understand it. But on the other hand, you know, we talk to our partners, we talk to our retailers, we talk to our underwriters, and we do not over commoditize the experience to either our insurance carriers or our retail agents. And that comes through.
Most insurance transactions are commoditized. And we try to decommoditize the whole process so that, you know, it does not feel like you're being rushed, that you have the opportunity to ask questions and that like, getting to the next.
Getting to the next submission is not the priority. The priority is making the insured feel like they're getting what they paid for.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think this is the key thing, isn't it? Is that like you said, it's about decommoditizing the insurer, Decommoditizing just the words that appear on a paper that ultimately people go shopping for and are more than likely, whether accepted or not or want to believe it or not, is price conscious first before they actually begin to see the real value. So would you say that the real difference working with you guys is access to expertise or the time you're prepared to put in and invest with them, or your ability to be more creative than them? Or is it just simple as being able to speak to someone who has the authority to make decisions and say, this is what you need to be doing?
[00:11:06] Speaker B: We like to say all of the above, but it all funnels into that. We care about every transaction and we care about our retailers getting what they come for. So we do all of that.
We teach, we are there to explain things. We get on conference calls, and we have the ability to sort of run the gamut of all aspects of the transactions, both for our underwriting partners and for the retailer and the insured. So, you know, at the end of the day, when a retailer accesses a wholesaler. They do that because they're looking for a trading partner that can, you know, give a full picture of the transaction to the insured. And I think ever since we started back in 1989, that's what we pride ourselves on doing. We, we are good partners to both our underwriters and our agents.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So yeah, this is the key thing is that being a partner and you keep coming back to that, it's not just being the wholesaler, it's being the partner for them. It's someone they can lean on and get the support when they need going forward.
I'm going to dial it back a little bit from what you've just said a little bit earlier. Every time you and I have spoken, we bring this up. We've seen a tremendous amount of consolidation and PE investment across the industry board.
What do you believe gets lost when a specialist, when a relationship led business becomes part of this much bigger, almost blind, larger organization?
[00:12:47] Speaker B: I think the issue is, and this is not always true, but the most common complaint I get from our retailers is that you can sort of feel that the whole transaction is pressed for time.
That, you know, there's not enough time to look into all the coverage nuances that have to be looked into. There's not enough time to do the conference call. There's not enough time to do the raw analysis that you need to do. Like there's not enough time to pick up the phone and make the call to the underwriter so that they know what they're getting. And what we like to do is give more of that time back to the agent so that they're not, they're not feeling pressed that like this is all needs to get to Binder as fast as possible. Because at the end of the day, every agent has an E and O exposure to worry about in addition to, you know, worrying about getting the revenue on their books. And if you get the account on the books correctly the first time, then the renewals always become easier because you're not continually worrying about how the account needs to be audited. You're not continually worrying about is it placed correctly.
We feel like doing the account the correct way the first time eliminates the need for all that. And it gives the agent the ability to both put revenue on their books and minimize their E and O experience, you know, their E and O exposure.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: I think this is a key fundamental challenge that the insurance company and many other industries tend to fall into, but almost blind to it. It's almost like the leaky Bucket. It's very much focused, especially with PE LED or VC led. It's very much revenue, revenue every, let's tie it up, become a bucket shop, get as much done as possible.
But to coin a phrase I've used for many, many years and decades now is that you're not tying the deal up in a bow properly. And if you don't tie the deal up in a bow properly, the bow comes undone and it comes undone, then the box sides come undone and when the box sides come undone, things are coming out and then we get that. The age old problem that people don't pay enough attention to in my opinion is attrition.
You're losing attrition or you're increasing your attrition. And therefore what do we now do? We tend to put more in at the top end of the bucket, spend more money on the marketing, more money on the lead generation and without plugging the actual problem.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah, we see that all the time just from agents that say they've placed an account with a source and then the, the source that they placed the business with is, has either moved on or they're not there and they're having to re explain the risk. And that happens like two or three times in five years. And like all of that is nonproductive.
I think at A.J. wayne, all of our producers have like an average of 10 years of experience. Experience. I've been here for 23 years.
We don't push all our stuff off to stuff off to a service center. So if you place an account, you always have a place to go to, to for questions and you're not, you know, sent off to a service center where the person that's handling it doesn't understand what you did to begin with. So there's a real value in that. And I think most agents pride themselves on being independent.
And I say this all the time and it bears repeating. Independent agents that deserve independent wholesalers and you know, it's the same reason that they pitch being independent to their clients.
You get more of a value in being able to provide the insured value. The more f facets of the chain are independent themselves. So we like to tell our agents like as much as we can that if you're independent you should want to do business with a wholesaler that's also independent.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: No, I totally agree with you. Agree with you. So let's move on a little bit more to growth. Let's talk about, you know, you've said it several times now, which is fantastic. AJ Wayne has historically grew Largely through reputation, doing the right thing with the right people at the right time, and grew through word of mouth. There'll be plenty of people listening to this and watching this and go, well, so do we. That's exactly what we've done. We, we, we've grown on word of mouth and our reputation.
But as you and I both know, that isn't scalable. It gets to a point where it gives you decent growth, but not the growth that you require.
You said AJ Wayne is now a company that is looking to becoming far more deliberate about its marketing.
What is, what is.
Why would you say now is the right time to become more visible?
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Just in the past three to five years, what artificial intelligence has allowed us to do is responsibly integrate automation, responsibly integrate artificial intelligence into the brokerage process in a way that magnifies our expertise and is not a substitute for it.
And that I think is, you know, been the one thing that has given us so much ability to handle more accounts, to be more hands on, to do more marketing. I mean, when I started in the business, it wasn't uncommon 20 years ago that if you did 175 emails, that was a good day. And now, you know, it's. What time is it? It's 3:30. I mean I've done 350 emails today and it's not even sniffing 5 o' clock sniff. So you know, your ability to do more and your ability to do more in a way that's consistent with your expertise is the key that unlocks our ability as an organization to like do just as much as a wholesaler with like, you know, 30, 30 different wholesale brokers.
All of the old limits don't no longer exist. And because of that, our expertise combined with the way that we're utilizing the technology is what we think makes us different.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think this is the key thing, isn't it is. It's. We're beginning. We live in a world which is instant gratification. Instant gratification unfortunately means speed. And with speed, time is money. There's more to be done in that time, but we're still human. We can only do so much in that moment in time.
And in the old days you just get more stuff. But then your payroll increases, your liability increases, everything increases that with, not necessarily to scale the growth that you want.
That being said, Drew, how do you grow, in your opinion, the company, without gradually becoming the kind of large, heavy, siloed organization you have deliberately positioned A.J. wayne in becoming?
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Well, the answer to that Is it all goes back to how you spend the time that you gained through the advances of technology.
If you were to spend the advances of time, you know, just trying to jam as much business in as humanly possible, I mean, we would essentially become like a, you know, a hypocrisy to a certain degree. We would have a lot of the same negatives as we like to preach against. But, you know, while we do, we are quicker, we like to make sure that we're taking advantage of our time, that we're always answering that question in the way of, okay, well, let's make sure that we're doing right by our insureds and let's make sure that we're doing right by our partners.
And if you're using your free time in a way that answers those questions first, then the work product becomes your best marketing material. And I think that if you asked our retailers, they would say that has been the one thing that they've seen change the most, that the comprehensiveness of our work product has gotten so much better that what was possible three, four years ago has just become that much more comprehensive to our retailers. And yes, certainly we save time, but we always like to answer the question of let's make sure that we're providing a better work product first and then market second.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because there's no point, we've seen that before, where they just go out and market themselves and they cannot. I'm already thinking of a company that I've just been spoken to last week where they've actually have now got to the stage where they've outsold their ability to fulfill.
They cannot physically fulfill in the timescale that they used to be able to fulfill by causing another. By doing the rapid expansion through their marketing. So making sure your product is ready, the fulfillment is ready, and then the marketing to go alongside. So that being said, what has worked particularly well for your company over, let's say, the course of the last 12 months? Because marketing changes constantly. What worked a year ago, let alone five years ago, doesn't work today. Buyers are more savvy when it comes to buying stuff. It's not just price consciousness now anymore. It's far more than that. What has worked well for you over the last 12 months that you're going to carry on in the next 12 months. And then I suppose we can talk about what doesn't work, but let's talk about what worked tremendously well for you over the course of the last 12 months.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: I think most folks, when they market they get lost in a sense of this salesy cheesiness that everyone can sort of smell coming from a mile away.
I mean, daily I'll get like three or four LinkedIn messages that are just, it's obvious that they're cut and pastes. You know, everybody gets the cold call that obviously they're reading off of a script.
And when we market, we try to do it with a general sense of, you know, being a real person and trying to just communicate what we do well for our partners and mostly, you know, just being present in the marketplace and giving good information. So rather than just call someone and not believe what you're saying about oh please send me business, we'll do X, Y and Z and then X, Y and Z never happened.
We try to use our expertise as our differentiator to show folks that look, it's not just Andrew Kelly at AJ Wayne and Associates. We have a team of 10 brokers.
All of us have the RPLU. Like all of us have been here 5, 7, 10, 12, 20, 30 years. And when you come to us, you're not getting the typical like two year broker that is going to be looking to just move the submission as quickly as possible into the buying column. You're getting a consultative experience and you're getting something that when you feel it, it's different than most what's out there in the marketplace and that's palpable to our retailers. And from our standpoint, when we're doing the marketing, we would much rather take our time and market to the folks that matter to us. And if we're able to make three or four good partnerships, then we would rather do that than just cold call and read off a script all day long. Because in my mind that's just not worth it. So if we come knocking at your door, you can rest assured that we've taken our time and identified you as a potential partner and we want to do business with you intentionally.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: So let's talk about that. Ella, share with us that because like you said, it's about being intentional. But marketing takes on different forms. Like you say, emails, cold calls, webinars, seminars. You know, the industry was rife on seminars before and then that obviously the world changed from there. So with regards to the actual mechanism, the logistics of what it is, not the theory behind it, but what's worked tremendously well for you, is it cold calling emails? Is it direct response? What's worked tremendously well for you guys?
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Well, for us, I think the first step is trying to not be Feel like you're being pushy. So I try to have a general presence in the, across the sphere. So like, when folks see my content and like, let's say they, they like something that I post, generally what I'll do is like, if I notice that they're interacting with me, I might take the time to research whether or not they'd be a good partner for us and then maybe drop them a LinkedIn message and hey, this is what we are, this is what we do. Here's a YouTube video so that you can see that. And if you'd like to have a conversation, great. And then take that cycle to where you're not beating someone to death with it, but like you're giving them maybe two or three touch points that are real, that are legitimate and that are intentional so that it feels like you are focusing on that client because you want them to send you a submission. And if they feel like they do, you're going to make a difference and turn that into revenue for them. So in, in my mind, the thing that works the best with marketing is just slowing down. You've got to take your time. You have to make the, whoever you're marketing to feel like they're not the, the 367th call you're making that day. You've been intentional, you understand who they are, you understand what they do, and you've decided that they would make sense for a good business partner for you. And at a very minimum, if folks would just slow down when they market, if they just tailored their marketing technique to, first of all, understanding whether or not the client makes sense for them as a partner first. And that's felt through the other end of the phone. Because at least if they say no, at least they know that, like when you are marketing to them, you understand who they are, you understand what they do, and you're not rushing through the process.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: And I think that's a big difference. Is it, like you said, you are the complete contrast when you say slow down through marketing compared to, for sake of another term, the pressure that VCs and PEs put on a lot of these firms of bucket shop. It is ride it up, write it up, approach, approach, approach, write it up, write it up, write it up.
And that's when it does come that sleazy side of it. And so I think this is a very key thing about slowing down, giving value. And this is nothing new, nothing you've just said to the listeners and watchers and viewers here will go, oh, that's, that's groundbreaking. Everyone knows they should give value.
They're just not giving value in the way that people expect to get value. It's, it's like you say, I get emails, I get LinkedIn messages, I get cold calls. And it's throwing it down your throat so early that you haven't even how you possibly know what I want if you haven't even spoken to me yet. And you're throwing it down my throat. And that is unfortunately the way that most companies are pushing it. And so I'm really glad, you know, there's a great bit of insight. So people listening, people watching here, you know, maybe take some time yourself, slow down, have a look at the marketing, listen to what Drew just said and say, hey, are you really giving value or is it just slop?
Especially in this AI world? Which leads me to AI.
Your title, Drew. Chief Artificial Intelligence Officer.
Very unusual title, especially within the insurance industry.
What problem are you trying to solve when you start developing AJ Wayne's AI infrastructure?
[00:28:49] Speaker B: So it's all about for us understanding where the next stage of AI is going to be and how to best leverage that to put out better work. Product training data is a big hot button in the market. And how do you not just turn the next version of chat GPT and then into the next sort of canned response that doesn't have any, you know, real insurance teeth to it? So like, we've spent a lot of time developing really good training data and then filtering that through an agentic AI system that our brokers then can use to get insurance specific results to then filter through their expertise.
So what you're getting is not just chatgpt, what you're getting is an agentic artificial intelligence system that's specifically designed with insurance in mind, but then filtered through folks that know insurance.
So, you know, especially these days, the big danger of artificial intelligence is that that your if the trading partner on the other end doesn't understand artificial intelligence and the system that they're using is not trained properly and doesn't have the data that it's supposed to rely on to give the correct results, it becomes a danger and it becomes an E and O risk. And especially in this day and age where artificial intelligence exclusions, questions in the applications are starting to show up that are targeting artificial intelligence, it becomes an E and O risk if you're not confident that your, you know, trading partner can steward the resource properly. So what we're doing is we are focusing on agentic, we are focusing on training data and we are focusing on expertise to all work together to give the work product that is responsible to our partners.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: I think it's a key word there is being responsible. I mean you've been very clear that AI should support the expertise rather than replace the expertise that's out there.
But there is this question about professional judgment.
So here's a question for you, a bit, you know, a bit, a bit left field. Do you believe that AI could make a mediocre broker more dangerous by allowing them to produce confident looking work that they don't properly understand?
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of brokers, a lot of people in insurance just straight away use you know like a chat GPT and call it, you know, call it expertise.
And I mean you could just take that as for what you want as to whether or not that that's responsible. But if the person that is reading it like doesn't have, doesn't have an understanding of what the actual insurance principles are, if they're putting your client data in unsecured systems, all of that in my mind become, become real concerns. And you know, 10 years ago when you were, we would talk about, you know, how you handle submissions, like who are your markets? I think every agent should be asking the question of their wholesalers, like how do every, you use, probably use artificial intelligence? How, like how. Walk me through how you do it through the submission process, walk me through how it's done through the quoting process. Like walk me through what kind of training data you have. And if you don't get real answers then the answer is it's probably just an LLM and you have to decide if that's right for your agency.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: Do you know what? That's such a key point there Drew. It's not asking them if they use artificial intelligence, it's to assume they are and then find out how well are they actually using it.
The assumption should be that they are already using AI, are they using correctly, are they using it safely, are they using compliantly?
So I suppose that leads nicely to my question.
In your experience and in your expertise field, what should insurance brokers, which parts of AI should they be using if they're not already using it, what should they be using in their business on a day to day basis?
[00:33:14] Speaker B: By now I think everyone's going to end up using Agentic in some way shape or form. I've heard across the industry that Agentic is either currently being used by certain organizations, but I think it's also being currently written or currently like being like constructed by agencies. It's being constructed by insurance Carriers, it's being constructed by NGAs. And you could really get into the weeds of even within the agentic structure, you could nip at the margins and use like a sonnet to give you your work product.
And you would be doing that if you tried to, you know, save funds, or you can use, you know, opus and if you were willing to spend a little bit more money, get a better work product. So even within the AI structure, agents should be asking, like, which version are you using? Is it agentic? Are you using sonnet? Are you using Opus when you get an output, are you making sure that it makes sense to you before you send it to us? And squeezing at the margins and commoditizing insurance also has a concern within AI, because until you know how your wholesaler or how the MGA or how the insurance company is using AI, you just don't. And the scary thing for an agent should be not knowing.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: No. And that's the key thing, isn't it?
You gotta get ahead of it to a degree, get above that curve, get in front of that curve, see the ball coming at you, even if you don't understand it yet. But at least then you can actually see what you don't understand.
That being said, putting AI aside, Drew, you spent more than 20 years inside the same industry and the same family business.
From a human point of view, from a leadership point of view, what has taught you about building a reputation that lasts? And what would you give as your final piece of insight to those listening?
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Develop a, an empathy for who you're working with and legitimately, like what you're doing.
If you just sit at your desk all day and send emails, you're not going to be happy, you're not going to enjoy what you're doing, and it's going to be something that you don't get. As far as if you get a submission and rather than just send emails on it, you call your trading partner, you try to understand it, and then you send the submission out, but then you call your underwriters and you try to make them understand it, and then you get the quotes and then you call the agent and you give them a good, you know, breakdown of it, but you make sure they understand it. So there is a real wanting for that human to human ability to connect and to empathize with both agents and underwriters. And if you can do that, you will make sure that your job's going to be safe in the next 20 years. Because like the whole ball of wax, as AI continues to develop is going to be your ability to develop relationships and your ability to connect with people.
And honestly, that's going to be the one single skill that you're going to need to develop if you expect to thrive in the next 20 to 30 years in insurance.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Do you know what? I think that's a fantastic piece of advice to end this episode. Andrew, I think this is the key thing. We are now in a world where AI is running faster than people probably keep up, yet the thing we all desire is authenticity. Again, that human connection, that human authenticity. Is it the real person I'm talking to? Is this real or is this artificial intelligence? And I think the more that you, like you say connect, talk to, understand and be real about it, will hold people and their business in good stead for many, many years to come.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: I agree.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Well, Andrew, all I can say is thank you very much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure having for you. You've answered your Vance sort of expertise. It's been an absolute pleasure having you here. I will make sure that your contact details, if people want to reach out to you, potentially work with you. I'll make sure my team puts your contact details in the show notes.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Not at all. And thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for joining us for yet another episode of the Growth Focus podcast.
And if you have picked anything up from Drew, any little nuggets or things that you can actually potentially now use and go forward in your business to grow, make sure you put a like in the comments, make sure you tell us what you've picked up, but more importantly, make sure you share. This is the key thing. How we grow as entrepreneurs is not by being in a bubble, but by listening and standing on the shoulders of giants, learning from them. And if we could take one nugget and pass it on and use it in ourselves, then we'll all be better off from it. So until the next episode, work safely, work profitably and we should see you next time. Bye bye.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: It.
