The End User Gap: What Tech Founders Get Wrong | Courtney Poulos |

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:17] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Growth Focus Podcast. I'm Gary Lafferty, your host and founder of Growth Focus Partnerships where we help MSP owners and B2B tech leaders be build more predictable revenue. Now, today's guest is Courtney Polis. She's a broke owner with 21 years in real estate and she's probably the most honest critic of tech products you're going to hear from. She runs a YouTube channel where she signs up for prop tech tools, tests them in real time and tells her audience exactly what works and what doesn't. Founders have called her after the thumbs down reviews. Some of them listened to, some of them didn't. What she has to say today isn't really about real estate. It's about what happens when you build something for a customer you've never actually sat with and why that gap is quietly killing retention, trust and growth for a lot of tech companies right now. And as per usual, no fluff. Let's get into it. Hey Courtney, it's great to see you again and great to have you on the show this episode. And why don't you start off by introducing yourself. Why don't you tell us who you are and what is it that you actually do? [00:01:28] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much, Gary. I'm happy to be here. My name is Courtney Polis. I'm the broker owner of Acme Real Estate in Los Angeles and the co founder of Acme Florida and Orlando. I have been a real estate sales agent for 21 years and a broker for 15. Seen the industry through a lot of changes. I've also had a million jobs. I've been on TV as a host of my own television show. I was a actor, waitress, front desk person, Italian tile salesperson. I've done a billion jobs, I swear. But real estate's the one that got me hooked. So I'm very happy. [00:02:09] Speaker B: I can't wait to dive into it. And what we're going to talk about today is obviously not just about real estate, but about business in general. Business growth, AI and a whole load of things. But before we get into that calling, I just want to dial it back a bit. You know, you say you've done a plethora of stuff, stuff in your career. I just want to mention a few of the highlights there. College at 13 years old, journalism, acting, and as you say, then your own show and in real estate. And now you're one of the most vocal critics and testers out there of prop tech within the industry. How does this unconventional path make you a better business owner? In your, in your view today? [00:02:49] Speaker A: Well, I mean, listen, I think if you. Everybody's got something to offer, right? So part of the young, part of all of our lives is finding out what it is that is our thing. What do we have to contribute, what's unique, what can stand the test of time, what can we grow? And for me, all of the things that I learned in my life have actually made me quite a survivor in some ways. I know that there's a, I don't know if it's passe now to say survivor, but I've had to live on my own from a very young age. And I think that not having a lot of resources or people kind of telling me I couldn't do something has actually created a creative spirit inside of me that has made me able to move through a lot of different changes in our industry and our market. But all that to say, I forgot the original question you asked, but I think right now we're all, all business owners, but especially in our industry, we're trying to figure out, is AI going to replace us, where is it going to replace us? And how can we create systems that survive the tech. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Exactly. There's a lot of changes in there, and it doesn't matter what particular niche they're in. Running a business today is getting tougher and tougher. We're hearing the same challenges across the board, no matter what that industry is. With you, I have some, some very interesting questions I'd like to ask you because I think the answers that you, when you and I have spoken before, the answers you've given to those, and your general attitude when it comes to running a business is something which I believe my listeners and my subscribers and my viewers can really, you know, take a, take a step out of their industry for a little bit. Take a step out of their niche. So, for example, you've been an owner, operator, as you said, as a broker since 2011, 2012 or whatever it is, and you've gone through various market shifts. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:52] Speaker B: I don't think there is a tech founder listening here that doesn't think their industry is uniquely hard right now. What would you say 14 years, 15 years of navigating multiple disruptions within an industry actually teaches you as a business owner. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Well, being a business owner, you have the ability to expand and contract where needed. What we're always contending with is very highly talented competition, which I think is the same in the tech industry. You have people out teching you while you're, while you're in invention space. Right you're like developing something and there's somebody else who comes out with the same product. It's the same way in real estate. Just when I think I've got something unique, somebody imitates it. You know, I could get in the grains about that. But it's really, it's really something that increases the competitive spirit but is also frustrating when you are responsible for the success or failure of the business. And that frustration and exhaust is definitely the same probably in tech as it is in real estate. The difference I guess is we don't deal with founder money most of the time. I suppose some big brokerages do, but most of us are on the labor force side of things. We work to earn our money. So we're not trying to satisfy investors or make good on our pitch claims or that kind of pressure, which I know is a big piece of what tech people have to deal with. But for us it's more about distinction, visibility. And this is where tech actually is our friend. This is where tech is our tool we can use. You have to realize my industry is unlike the tech industry that's trying to make a product for an industry that serves a particular need and sell it to them. Ours is we have people as our product and we have to distinguish ourselves from the competition in a way that makes people choose us over and over again. We're constantly fighting for, for the business. So it's, it's like I feel like tech tries to retrofit and this was something that came up for us in our conversation before is that in prop tech particularly a lot of the tech is not in, is not informed by the actual people it's supposed to serve. I feel like one of the biggest mistakes that tech founders make in AI, particularly with regard to real estate, is that they don't to have real estate agents testing it for accuracy for ease of use. Our industry is contract specialists and the people who are senior in our industry were probably raised in the 80s or 90s. They are not like new babies. They're not my 17 year old son trying to, you know, he can navigate things a lot easier using certain platforms and apps. I'm like, how do I even make this screen bigger on this particular device? You know, whatever. Anyway, I'm. Listen, I'm not old by any means, but I was there before computers and now I'm. And now I'm required to use these new tools that are supposed to improve things, but I find myself checking their oil. So I created a YouTube channel called Real Estate AI Coach. I admittedly have not like promoted. It has like 500 subscribers right now. But I signed up for all these different apps and I started testing them and with the audience just to, so they could kind of watch an ordinary real estate agent just kind of going through what they're promising and does this live up to the promises that are made? And I'm finding over and over again that, that they don't. You know, it should have been called Courtney versus the AI because truly there's a missing. And I think that the most successful tech companies in our real estate space are going to be the ones that really use real estate agents in the field as their test monkeys. And let us tell you what we need from this in order to make it work so that it's accurate and actually saves us oversight. You know, we have to quality control everything. [00:08:59] Speaker B: I mean, well, I think that's the key thing, Courtney. You know, this is the thing. I mean, you have, you're in a unique advantage and a unique position where you come at this industry from a user perspective, but not just from a user perspective as a business owner. [00:09:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:15] Speaker B: You literally have a channel that goes out there and, and, and, and gives the opinion on what's working and what doesn't work. So for example, you publicly on your channel gave a prop tech product a thumbs down on your YouTube channel and the founder came back and said, hey, Courtney, heard what you said. That's a key point. I heard what you said. Try this new version. That's a remarkable response, especially from the people in this industry, to act so quickly. What does that tell you about tech founders, about how they handle criticism about their product and how rare is it in that you're, in your opinion, do you actually hear that? [00:09:57] Speaker A: It's pretty rare. I mean, through the real estate AI coach channel, I've had an opportunity to connect with some CEOs. And the CEOs, of course, it's their baby. So they're the ones that want my feedback because they know I'm going to be honest, you know, and I do appreciate the responsiveness. And I did a review of that new product too. I think you're referring to Atlas X Nima, the owner. You know, he's, he definitely wants to hear what I have to say. But you know, he's funny. Like at one point he's like, we're going to turn this into a brokerage. I'm like, why? You're not, you don't, you are not equipped to sell real estate agent or manage agents. Why would you do that? You know So I think sometimes the anxiousness about creating something that hasn't been created before or to try and, you know, jump ahead and replace certain parts of our job with the tech, when you're not really qualified to even measure its effectiveness is the challenge. And that's where a lot of companies probably fall short. Like an agent like me will sign up for the subscription for two months and then I'm out, you know, I'm not using it. It's not working for me. I still find that the CMAs are wrong, you know, or whatever CMA is, the comp analysis, like that's a big piece of the research part of our job. So I think that the other piece that a lot of tech founders are going to have a challenge with is that Perplexity, for example, Perplexity Computer is able to do what that CMA analysis was supposed to look like from all these other platforms. So I'm immediately unsubscribing from everything, you know. So they're outdoing each other so quickly. It's going to be difficult to find something that really lasts unless you take a holistic approach to it. So that would mean coming in, sitting with a real estate agent for their entire day, or sitting with a broker and going, where are the hurdles here? What's taking you so much time? Where can we afford effectively fill in the gaps, but also build a relationship with you so that as the challenges continue to come or as the other tech options make themselves apparent or duplicate what we're doing, you still stay with us. [00:12:11] Speaker B: Well, this again, I think this is something I want to delve into because I loved it when we were talking about that before, you know, you talked about it, you call it the IKEA effect. Founders are overvaluing what they built because it is their baby. That's what they have. They're kind of like sugar coated eyes. You've got that channel, as you said. But you've also suggested that people actually sit down real time and get some real feedback. How does a founder who's listening to this get an honest read on whether their product is actually solving a problem that they actually think it is, rather than a problem that they just want to solve. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Right? That's a great question. I think you need to get real estate agent. If it's prop tech, I'm speaking just about real estate industry, but I suppose this could apply to anybody. You have to find who your actual user is. So I know there's the pitch deck version of that. I'll give you an example. I Used to work for a tech startup back in the dot com days. It was called Rent Payment. And what the Pitch Deck version of the user was is a person who rents, who has an American Express card, who wants to get the points for the rent, who was willing to pay the 1% service fee just for the ability to get more and more points on their card. These are people who pay down their credit cards every month. Right? That's who the Pitch Deck version of the subscriber is. The real subscriber was people who can't pay their rent, who put a portion of the rent or their whole rent on the credit card. So it's like their concept was one thing, but in reality who ended up being the people that used it were the people who couldn't afford the rent, not the people who wanted points. So I think it's the same way. I think it's the same way with Proptech. [00:13:57] Speaker B: It is because you think we have the owners who create something because they, they want to solve a problem. They're passionate, they're engineers, they're developers, they want to solve this problem that they've come across. And they always say great businesses are born from problems you, you've, you've had personally. But you, I love what you said earlier on. You said tech is shifting so quickly. By the time you go in to start something, that might be the best way. But then now the problem has shifted. There might be a different competitor doing it, there might be a different version solving that. Now what you started off with Integr, isn't necessarily the right or still relevant to what the market is. And I think AI has a lot of that. And I think I want to start moving into our conversation into AI, because obviously we've got kind of, you're a great, you're a lover and a critic of AI. All right? [00:14:48] Speaker A: In fact, bad girlfriend. [00:14:50] Speaker B: All right. Your exact phrase was a hot, passionate girlfriend. Right. Of the AI. How was this? So for tech founders who have been told by their VC to bolt on AI, and I don't think there is a tech leader listening to this or watching this, who's involved with VC would disagree. VC people are saying you've got to have a AI element onto your product, you've got to have an AI element to your company. What does that balanced relationship in your mind look like in practice? [00:15:24] Speaker A: This is a sticky subject, Gary, because here's the thing, what we know about, for example, ChatGPT, is that there are no stated, there's no stated morality, there's no stated Ethics. The owner doesn't have an invested interest in humanity. So he says, like there's some things that, you know, if they skew things one way or the other, there's no accountability. And that's a problem in our business because we have the fiduciary responsibilities. We have the Department of Real Estate regulations, then we have national association of Realtors regulations, code of Ethics and then our MLS rules and regulations. We are a heavily regulated industry that can't play with loose with the law. AI can't fill that space. And that's where a lot of people are getting into trouble. In fact, there is an attorney, an eviction attorney in Los Angeles that just got in trouble for injecting AI generated fake case law, which again, I think ChatGPT should be in trouble for. I mean you can't do this to people like just completely mix fake and real and distribute it for a subscription fee. Anyway, he's in trouble now because of that. So people are using AI as kind of like a truth, an actual factual research tool when it doesn't have that as its stated ethics purpose, higher value, anything. Okay, that's a problem. So when you're injecting it into your business, you have to know, where can I quality control, at least for now, until there is some liability for AI, right. Or the founders or the companies that make it, it's going to be the wild wild west in AI and that's dangerous business in our business. So part of my job is training my agents to make sure that everything they use AI for, whether it's listing descriptions or which they should still tweak. I don't want us to lose our voice or comp analysis where that platform is giving you a list of comps that it's reviewed in order to generate a value, that those are realistics, that that's real information and real data. And that takes time too. Our question is always, is AI actually saving us time? Is it? Yeah, because sometimes it's not. We have to quality control it the way we quality control our own work. So you know, there are some things that AI is just not designed to replace at this point. And tech founders frequently put those things into the app and I think that's a, that's a big problem. So even with this atlas, let's take Atlas X as an example. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker A: The platform has calls like an AI receptionist or, and, and, and then it also has AI robo calling, so you can choose the voice and upload a list that you get from the title company of names and Phone numbers of people it will call and say, hi, this is John. I'm the assistant to Courtney Polis at Acme Real Estate. Are you thinking of buying or selling? And I guess there's some data I saw, I can't remember what the source was that said that some people are actually more likely to respond to an AI inquiry like that than to a regular person because they feel not attached to the outcome, like how the person's going to respond to them. They don't feel like they're going to get stuck in some conversation, which I found very interesting. [00:19:02] Speaker B: So it's quite fascinating, that one. And we'll go back to that example because. Yeah, and just thinking about that, it's like, well, as a human being, we probably, if we were having a conversation with another human being, we probably don't want to upset them. We don't want to be seen as an agitator, we don't want to be seen as uncooperative. Whereas if we knew we were talking to some kind of AI, we knew there's no real consequence to do or whatever we say on that. And that reminds me of something you said earlier when we last, you know, and this is a bit of a provocative one. You said that AI, AI is making a human expert more valuable than less. You used. I think it was a fireplace analogy. Do you want to share that a little bit about the fireplace analogy? [00:19:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But just to wrap that one point up, I think that's an interesting market test of where the future of telemarketing could go. But I don't know that it applies across the entire board. But where. Where I might use the robocalling feature because I like that. And maybe there's success that can be had there doesn't require as much human output. A lot cheaper than hiring a person to do it. The people on the other end are getting a better experience. That's successful AI use integrated into the tech. Now where. What else would I use it? Like there were other things in there where I'm like, aicrm. I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that means. You know, so it's not. That's. It's. I think that there's a mix. Like people just throw the word around. But I don't know where AI is optimizing anything in my database other than ranking the prospective leads based on the last time they bought or something like that. Because how can they know really who's most likely to sell? They don't know if Maybe they know somebody gets divorced or something like that. Maybe there are some other metrics that could get go in there in the data analysis part. So that has, that is yet to be proven. But, but so there is a space for it. I don't think it should be the entire thing. We still need to make room for humans. I'm still an advocate for humans on this planet. I'm an advocate for the human job. The human job, you know, and I think, what if we just adopt this AI so fast that we have an entire generation of people hanging out around, out on the streets like with nothing to do because there's no employment. And we expect that the public interest of getting people jobs at odds with the economic interest of efficiency, then we're going to have a civil war. We're going to have a major crisis. Major crisis. And these tech platforms do need humans to use them and pay their subscription fees. So that's where the two circles collide. So, but get back to the fireplace analogy. In Los Angeles, you cannot install a wood burning fireplace in a new construction property because of the fire conditions that we have here. However, there are many 1920s Spanish homes, very, you know, even 20 all the way, you know, up to like the 90s, that have these beautiful fireplaces. The value of a wood burning fireplace has now gone up because it's commodified. And I think on some level human talent, which has been watered down by technology or even too many people getting their college degrees and going into customer service or whatever, there's something about human expertise that has been outsourced or watered down. I think that could shift. And you're going to see human talent become the boss of the robot and become valuable again. And so all of those kind of useless customer service jobs could turn into management of tech type of jobs. I think it's important to remember that with all of this AI, you're going to have the robots buy things from other robots. Then you're going to need to include humans into the overall holistic approach to the tech. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. And this is the key thing we have. Tech founders are being pushed to automate everything. There are many, many cases where. Well, there are many cases for businesses for keeping the human in the loop. You've mentioned a couple earlier on, you know, the very fact that we still need humans to actually use and pay subscriptions and whatnot. But this is the key thing. We've seen AI tools cause real customer harm as well. Without that human element in your industry, for example, with through Bad valuations, inaccurate valuations because of AI putting. You know, when they. Oh, what is the term for it? When they go in and they put the furniture in and make the house look nicer. Yeah, yeah, staging. But now they're not staging. They're using AI for that. I know we talked about this before, what's your insights and thoughts on that? [00:23:56] Speaker A: Well, you know what virtual staging is? Virtual staging, it doesn't matter. The people are going to walk into the property if they're going to buy it. Unless they're buying it sight unseen, which is a real risk anyway. So they should know that any responsible purchaser of real estate is either going to physically tour the property or have the agent do a physical walk through of the property at the very least. So to me, all the restrictions on virtual anything are kind of. I mean, if it's intentionally misleading, I can see how that would be problematic. Like say you're removing telephone poles or something that you know is actually physically there, that, you know, maybe that's misleading, but otherwise it's dressing up an image. I don't have any problem with that. The real thing is there to inspect and the rest of the process allows quite a bit of due diligence and maybe it just is meant to be inspirational and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. So AI, I think they crack down on the. Our industry is so funny, so weird. They get a bug in their butt about a thing. They miss the gigantic thing in the room right now, which is our entire bureaucracy is falling apart and they focus on AI, virtual staging images and pass rules and regulations about that. We what's really happening, if you want to get the weeds of the tech part of it, is that there are big companies who are essentially trying to rewrite the rules of data display for our listings and do it without the permission or consent of the establishment, you know, gatekeepers, the MLS and then national association of Realtors. So are we going to have a open source MLS or open source nationwide portals? Are agents even going to need to associate with any local gatekeepers like the MLS's that we have more than 500 of them across the country, do we need them? We might not need them because Zillow and Redfin have created de facto national MLS listing services right on their portals. The problem being of course, that there is a conflict of interest. They are revenue generation machines based on real estate sales as well. So it's at odds with the individual agent. So it looks good. But going level deeper, are we actually making our jobs harder and does the consumer win? So to get way back to our original question, for people who are creating apps, platforms that are meant to be used by people in human industries, right? Like real estate. We're a tactile industry. There is a missing piece. You can make my life easier perhaps by helping me write a listing description and maybe even upping the end by going, not only am I going to help you write the listing description, I'm going to make sure it doesn't violate federal fair housing guidelines. I'm going to make sure that it abides by your state's federal fair housing guidelines. Because you know, those are not the state's federal. The state's fair housing guidelines because it goes state by state. You know, like there's sometimes additional protected classes. But does the consumer win? Is the question with whatever it is you're creating, does the consumer win? So our industry is meant to serve the consumer. I'm just going to give you a quick example. There was a kind of famous story, by the way. I'm hearing a little echo, so I don't know if that's on your end or mine. You're ok. Ok, so there's a story that went viral recently of a couple in Florida that used AI to sell their home. See this headline? [00:27:48] Speaker B: No, no. [00:27:49] Speaker A: And, and so I'm not exactly sure all the nuances of how they did it, but there was an analyst who did a deep dive into how they did it, or rather like whether or not the statistics would show that if they used an agent, would they have gotten more for the house? And in this analyst's perspective, they would have. If they used a real estate agent, they would have made more money. And I think the dangerous thing about AI and the question of does the consumer actually win if all that, all the tech is adopted comes down to those kinds of questions, because that person can't sue AI right now, the AI has no fiduciary responsibility to the seller. So they can go online and check their values and list something under price it, get something and then feel like they won. But did they really win? And if they didn't, are they pissed off at somebody about it? And who can they sue becomes the next person. Frustration, you know, so AI right now is, is a tool and I think it needs to be put in its place. And I think if I were creating an app or platform, even if it was to serve an industry like real estate, I would make sure that part of the equation is, does this actually benefit the consumer? So it's not just does it make the agent job easier creating the cma, it's if the, if the agent adopts our platform and our tech to create the CMA, are we so, so 100% certain about its accuracy that when that goes to a seller, that that seller won't feel like they undersold their property because that's the end. Ultimate end user, you know. [00:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that makes, that makes sense. And this is the key thing, isn't it, because there's no judiciary responsibility, you can't sue AI. I think that's a very, very important point there. And with founders and leaders who are listening to this and they're being pushed by their VC to add AI element, that's something which is probably a question they should be asking themselves and thinking, okay, how do we protect ourselves from this? So that leads me quite nicely to our last question of today, Courtney, and is this if I know you've touched on it in your last answer, but I want to probably get probably a straightforward, easy peasy answer for you. If you're sitting in a chair of the exact person our tech founders are trying to sell to, it doesn't really matter who they are. They're just trying to sell to this particular person what is the one thing they consistently get wrong about their end user. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Hmm. I think they may overestimate the, the ease with which the end user can manipulate the platform to get the desired result. So I think that people think they'll say, oh, it's user friendly, but then when you go in there to navigate, it's kind of not, you know, or there are like little functions and features. I'm going to also say this, I got to say this so important. Human customer service. Human customer service. Because a lot of these platforms, you get in there, you see the ad, you buy the thing, you sign up, you try to navigate it, you run into something and then you have this like, chat button and it's a chat bot. And then I'm like, no, I need to speak with a person. And they'll say, oh, you know, it's closed, or, oh, if your email will be received and responded to within 24 hours. That doesn't work for me. I need immediate care. And I think that that hybrid component would reduce frustration, would build some relationships and build some trust and allow me to feel like I'm choosing your product over somebody else that does the same thing. Because I know if I run into those user issues of how, you know, using the platform, that I have somebody who can help me immediately. I can't under state that. It really is. [00:31:55] Speaker B: I think that is a loot golden nugget there, I think. And we've all used it. Absolutely. We've all have will have apps or some kind of formats that we're using that the button is just a bot. It's just a bot. And as business owners, we are more than likely needing help right now, not in 24 hours. Because time is money in business and I think that is far more valuable than you probably think it is. Courtney, for a piece of advice, I think that's absolutely a fantastic one. [00:32:28] Speaker A: I hope that's helpful because for me it is everything. Yes. [00:32:32] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, Courtney, if people want to get hold of you, chat with you, connect with you, work with you, what's the best way they can do that? [00:32:42] Speaker A: I would love to have more subscribers on Instagram. My Instagram handle is instagram.com forward/the cleanclothes and that's spelled C L O S E. I also have the Clean clothes podcast. It's on YouTube. YouTube.com forward/acme realestate. A C M E R E A L E S T A T E. Find me there. [00:33:05] Speaker B: Well, I'll make sure my team as usual, will put all those links inside the show notes so they can click straight away and get hold of you. And then I suppose all that remains for me to say is Courtney, thank you very much for your time and your insights and your expertise today. I'm sure the listeners and the watchers today have got a tremendous amount of golden nuggets out of this today. [00:33:25] Speaker A: Such a pleasure. And hey, just a note to any of your subscribers or listeners who have a real estate related platform that they need honest opinions and feedback on. Maybe they want to contribute to the Real Estate AI Coach channel. I am happy to review it. Feel free to reach out on Instagram or YouTube or via email. You can find me. It's all in there and I'm happy to test it out and share the results. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Fantastic. Be prepared for honest results. Courtney only ever gives honest results and that is a fantastic place. So Courtney, thank you very much for joining us. We'll stay in touch. And thank you ladies and gentlemen, for joining us on another episode of the Growth Focus. Until next time, goodbye. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Bye. [00:34:07] Speaker B: Courtney made a point near the end of the episode that I want to come back to and it was this. Her number one frustration with tech platforms isn't the product itself. It's the moment she runs into a problem. There's nobody there. A chat bot, a 24 hour email response and she's out. That's a retention problem. It doesn't show up in the deck. It shows up three months later when the churn numbers don't make sense. That's exactly the type of thing that comes up in a revenue leak audit. The lead comes in, the sale happened, and then somewhere in the middle, the follow through, the handoff, the customer experience, the relationship quietly fell apart. 30 minutes, no pitch booking link is in the show notes. Send this to one person who needs to hear it right now. See you next time.